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Rise of Superpower and Decline of another Superpower-Part 1
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redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 14074
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi elle,

There is no need for the Chinese to endear themselves to anyone. They only want to lead their own lives like everyone. But the Western media had/have been branding them with all kinds of negative stereotypes that the poor image sticks. And they have been the whipping boys and the bogeyman by the West.

The woes of Malaysia are the consequences of being colonised and their society and ruling systems restructured for them. The developed and modern world may think it is good for them. But they are still struggling to come to terms with their polity and society. Who knows, they may be happier living a life in a different manner with Allah as their guide and companion.
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*elle*



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

redbean wrote:
Hi elle,

In order to reply to your post I have to refer to part of the last post,

(redbean said) "Today, the Chinese are still hated and very negatively perceived by many Asian and even African countries for no real reasons except the unconscious planting of an idea in the minds of the people of the world against them. Yes it will change.

(elle replied) What have the Chinese done to endear themselves to other people? To many people they are an unknown peoples who do not seem to care a damn about anything except to make money. The western world sees the Chinese as Communists, i.e. anti-Christian. In many ways like the Jews. So what is so loveble about such a characteristic? "

I may be pedantic in insisting on this clarification, but to say, "the Chinese are still hated and very negatively percieved...." is a slight exageration. (Use of correct diction is essential on sensitive matters.) When eastern Europe was overwhelmed by Ghenghis Khan and his armies, the West suddenly realized that the Eastern peoples were conquerers, worthy worriors, and were cruel and merciless, and their supply of fighters seemed inexhaustible, they began to "fear" the peoples of the East. So the Europeans perpetuated this "fear" as an act of self-preservation. They, and later America continued to perpetuate this myth because it suited local consumption, the "fear of the yellow Peril".

Yet, there is credence to this fear. When America (also Australia) were founded, they were founded by European immigrants and they wanted new lands for their kind, i.e. more immigrants from Europe and England so that their culture would be expanded in the new country.

China being and old country and civilization had a lot of people and a lot of poverty, and these impoverished people wanted to find opportunities. So when America wanted a few labourers to build her railways, she brought in some Chinese labourers to do the dirty work. But word got around and the Chinese peasants immigrants came by the shipload. This frightened the European settlers and so there were strict control to stop this flow of Chinese immigrants. There was even a "male only" policy to stop the Chinese from starting families in America.

Was it discriminatory and prejudiced, yes! Was it normal reaction at that time of European attitudes? Yes! Those were the values during that time. Is it still practiced today? yes. Is it wrong? Yes! But do all countries have rules and regulations to control immigration? Yes! What is the solution? I don't know! Why should anyone particularly want more Chinese immigrants in a largely European community? Yes, Why? What benefit will it be to that community to have more Chinese immigrants?

Are Chinese intelligent and hard working? Yes! Good!
Is there a history of the Chinese integrating into their adopted European communities? No! They creat little China towns so they can live together. And they usually bring with them their own Triads! Bad! Even after 3 or 4 generations the Chinese live in their own little ghettos! Bad!
Are there some brilliant scientists and Doctors, and Scholars among them? Yes
Are there some bad hats among them as well? Yes!
Are they philantropic, generally? No, they help family and themselves!
So they are a bit like the Jews? Yes!
So what makes them preferable to any other race for immigration? Non unless you want a lot of cheap, unskilled labour to develop a country.
So is there a reason to give them preferance for Immigration? No!

So trying to understand the problem, can you fault the above analysis? If America or Europe open her doors to the Chinese, soon maybe 20% of her population will be Chinese who have no wish to integrate, just like the Jews. So can you understand the media rhetoric?

This is what I mean, "Chinese to endear themselves to others". What is so special about the Chinese that they should be liked and wanted as citizens of a new country? What assets can they bring to the new country?

Conversely, China wanted to get rid of the qweilos from Hongkong, and the Portuguese from Macao? And the Singaporeans wanted to get rid of the British from Singapore. Do you think China, or India, or Pakistan would be happy for several hundered thousand Europeans to immigrate and take over parts of their country? No!

So that is the way people are, full of envy, jealousy, prejudices, and animosity of people who are different! All of us stereotype other people! You do!

Today's problems in Malaysia are "Nationalism" coupled with "Islamic Crusade Fervour! Nothing much to do with colonialism as such. Except that the legacy left in the way of agreements placed the Malays at a distinct advantage, and yet the minority groups were let down by their own leaders and representatives at the time of Independence. These representatives sold the others out for their own gain, or from lack of conviction.


There is no need for the Chinese to endear themselves to anyone. They only want to lead their own lives like everyone. But the Western media had/have been branding them with all kinds of negative stereotypes that the poor image sticks. And they have been the whipping boys and the bogeyman by the West.

The woes of Malaysia are the consequences of being colonised and their society and ruling systems restructured for them. The developed and modern world may think it is good for them. But they are still struggling to come to terms with their polity and society. Who knows, they may be happier living a life in a different manner with Allah as their guide and companion.
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redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what is the truth with Kim Jung Il? Does he drink heavily? Does he like his women? This has to be verified before we can say that the media is right or they are slandering? by elle.

Yes these have to be verified. Did the media do so? If not, why is it that many reputable western media agencies and press are writing and printing these as the truth? So far what I see were a few repeat shots of Kim Jung Il holding his wine glass in a toasting posture. These pics were likely taken in state functions toasting with state guests. Would these pics constitute or confirm that he is an alcoholic? Where are the pictures of his harem and flirtation with women?

The supposely responsible and reliable western media are really telling what they want to tell, that he is a decadent bourgeoisie living a life of spendour, designer togs, expensive taste, cognacs, fine arts etc. And his people all suffering and hungry? Really? Just look at the working shirt that he wears in most occasions. Where are the designer's togs?

Why is the world allowing such deceptions in the main stream media or allowing themselves to be fed with the slanted version of someone's private agenda?
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Last edited by redbean on Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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redbean



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi elle,

There is one big flaw in your above analysis. Two actually.

One, the migration or importing of Chinese workers to America and Australia(including Southeast Asia) was an American and Australian and British initiative. The Chinese were too poor to go on their own. And they cannot get in without the invitation or permission of the Americans and Australians. They did not travel in warships with big cannons and soldiers.

Both White Americans and Australians(including British and other western powers) only wanted to exploit the poor peasant Chinese for their cheap labour, a bit like black slavery. They are only to be treated like beasts of burden. They were discriminated and badly ill treated. That could be the reason why they have to build Chinatowns to live among themselves. They were not allowed to integrate with the White community. Those were the earlier days of unwritten apartheid. It was the fault of the White men. Not the Chinese.

The Chinese have integrated very well in Thailand, Vietnam, even the Philippines, and Indonesia and Malaysia if they are allowed to. They inter marry very widely.

Compare to the White men, there is no such integration. The White men dominate and set up their own protection to prevent others from integrating with them. See the difference?

Second flaw. The White men were all colonialists. They came to conquer and take advantage of the less equipped Afro Asian countries. That was why the Afro Asian countries would want to drive them away. They were not invited, my friend. And if they are not careful, they will be driven out of the Middle East soon.

They came as conquerors. The fear of Yellow Peril is a western deception. The real fear is the White Peril. They came, they saw and they conquered. And they have stayed in America, Australia, New Zealand and many parts of the world.

See, my view is so different when seen from an Asian eye.
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redbean



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conversely, China wanted to get rid of the qweilos from Hongkong, and the Portuguese from Macao? And the Singaporeans wanted to get rid of the British from Singapore. by elle.

The second part about Singaporeans trying to get rid of the British is wrong again. Your knowledge of this part of the world is quite fuzzy, elle.

In 1970, it was Harold Wilson who announced the sudden withdrawal of British forces from the Far East. We did not chase them out. We were taken aback and it threw us into deep trouble. The withdrawal of British forces created a vacuum politically and militarily, and economically caused a lot of job loss. It was the British who deserted us and left us almost in a lurch.

But even after they left, we maintain a very good relationship with the British, keeping them as our advisers and maintaining a 5 Power Defence Pact with them. We never tear down any British institutions or renamed any roads or buildings to remove our colonial heritage. Not that we are proud of them. But we were not paranoid and neither were we anti British. Have you try to read our main newspaper, the Straits Times? Look at the sports page and you will think you are in London reading the London Times or the Sunday Mail.

Our govt, legal and administrative systems were all modelled after the British till today. And we have excellent relations with the Americans. We do not have anti British or anti American movements in this country.

Do not take my disagreement with the Bush Administration as anti American. I did not disagree with the Americans when Clinton was the President. I disagree with the Bush Administration and their policies and objectives. When the American govt is changed, you may hear me singing praises of the new govt if I agree with their policies.
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*elle*



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Verification Reply with quote

redbean wrote:
Well, what is the truth with Kim Jung Il? Does he drink heavily? Does he like his women? This has to be verified before we can say that the media is right or they are slandering? by elle.

Yes these have to be verified. Did the media do so? If not, why is it that many reputable western media agencies and press are writing and printing these as the truth? So far what I see were a few repeat shots of Kim Jung Il holding his wine glass in a toasting posture. These pics were likely taken in state functions toasting with state guests. Would these pics constitute or confirm that he is an alcoholic? Where are the pictures of his harem and flirtation with women?

The supposely responsible and reliable western media are really telling what they want to tell, that he is a decadent bourgeoisie living a life of spendour, designer togs, expensive taste, cognacs, fine arts etc. And his people all suffering and hungry? Really? Just look at the working shirt that he wears in most occasions. Where are the designer's togs?

RB, neither have you provided one piece of evidence to suggest that the media has got it wrong. So it sounds like the pot calling the kettle black!

Why is the world allowing such deceptions in the main stream media or allowing themselves to be fed with the slanted version of someone's private agenda?


Reply from Redbean.

Look elle, I don't have to prove he is innocent of all the false accusations reported in the Western media. All I need to prove is that all the information levelled at him were false and wishy washy. I did not claim that Kim Jong Il is a saint or a devil. I am just an observer looking at how the West tries to demonise him, but doing a very poor job out of it.
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*elle*



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject: A Reply Reply with quote

redbean wrote:
Hi elle,

There is one big flaw in your above analysis. Two actually.

One, the migration or importing of Chinese workers to America and Australia(including Southeast Asia) was an American and Australian and British initiative. The Chinese were too poor to go on their own. And they cannot get in without the invitation or permission of the Americans and Australians. They did not travel in warships with big cannons and soldiers.

Both White Americans and Australians(including British and other western powers) only wanted to exploit the poor peasant Chinese for their cheap labour, a bit like black slavery.

You sound like a down-trodden coolie moaning about the sufferings of your parents exploited by Gang masters. Did you know that the cockle pickers who were drowned in Britain had Chinese Gang Masters who allowed this exploitation? Did you know that I could go to Walmart and buy a pair of blue jeans for 3/- per pair that was probably made with cheap(slave) labour in China and run by Chinese Bosses in Chinese factories? People the world over will exploit any situation in order to make money. But it seems that to you, when a qwuailo does it it is wrong but if your fellow countryman does it is is OK? What logic is that? It sounds like Hate mongering!

They are only to be treated like beasts of burden. They were discriminated and badly ill treated. That could be the reason why they have to build Chinatowns to live among themselves. They were not allowed to integrate with the White community. Those were the earlier days of unwritten apartheid. It was the fault of the White men. Not the Chinese.

In Chinese tin mines, cheap Chinese labour was used by rich Chinese tin mine owners and paid slave wages to his workers. Similarly in the Rubber estates in Malaya. In China, a few Chin ese miners die digging for coal but their Chinese bosses get away with it for not observing safe practices. Is that exploitation? Every nationality attempts to masximize profits whenever they can. And what was accepted in the 19th Century as the norm may be considered criminal in the 21st Century. Times and conditions and laws change, so please bear in mind such matters when you blithely accuse others of atrocities.


The Chinese have integrated very well in Thailand, Vietnam, even the Philippines, and Indonesia and Malaysia if they are allowed to. They inter marry very widely.

In Thailand and Indonesia, you have forgotten the sufferings of the minority races until they got wise and had to forsake their names for Thai or Indenesian names, and dress like the locals. How many years did that take and at what humiliation? You do not see Chinese signboards in those countries any longer.

Malaysian Chinese have not been prepared to do this adjustment and you know that they are discriminated against.


Compare to the White men, there is no such integration. The White men dominate and set up their own protection to prevent others from integrating with them. See the difference?

do not see that difference today! things were different in the 19th century. Are you still living in that era?

Second flaw. The White men were all colonialists. They came to conquer and take advantage of the less equipped Afro Asian countries. That was why the Afro Asian countries would want to drive them away. They were not invited, my friend. And if they are not careful, they will be driven out of the Middle East soon.

That was the ethos of the 17th, 18th, 19th, even 20th Centuries. Today it is Monetary colonialism. It has changed somewhat. So do you intend to carry the hates of the 19th century and meter out retributions in the 21st century? Should the Europeans now demand compensation for what Chenghis Khan did some years ago?

They came as conquerors. The fear of Yellow Peril is a western deception. The real fear is the White Peril. They came, they saw and they conquered. And they have stayed in America, Australia, New Zealand and many parts of the world.

Yes they came as conquerors and colonialists. All the European nations were doing the same thing throughout the whole world. It was custormary then. No one spoke against it during that period. If you were weak you were subjugated. Period! That was the criteria. Sorry if your ancestors were weak and were run over, that's life. You can't change history or undo it. It is history!

You are seeing it from a very angry and jaundiced eye RB, if I may say so. It is views like this that perpetuates hate and anger. The Muslims are doing exactly the same thing today!


See, my view is so different when seen from an Asian eye.
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*elle*



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:15 am    Post subject: Another Response! Reply with quote

redbean wrote:
Conversely, China wanted to get rid of the qweilos from Hongkong, and the Portuguese from Macao? And the Singaporeans wanted to get rid of the British from Singapore. by elle.

The second part about Singaporeans trying to get rid of the British is wrong again. Your knowledge of this part of the world is quite fuzzy, elle.

My views are far from fuzzy, sonny boy! Were you even born or in Singapore during independence?

In 1970, it was Harold Wilson who announced the sudden withdrawal of British forces from the Far East. We did not chase them out. We were taken aback and it threw us into deep trouble. The withdrawal of British forces created a vacuum politically and militarily, and economically caused a lot of job loss. It was the British who deserted us and left us almost in a lurch.

Who is "we"? I am assuming you mean Singaporeans? Were you a Singaporean then? What was/is Singapore, a tiny dot at the end of Malaysia, and belonged to Tungku Abdul Rahman. Tengku wanted Independence, and so did many other ex-colonial territories. The Malaysian insurgencey was proving very costly and problematic for the British. India was agitating, so was Burma, and above all the Americans were pressurizing Britain to keep her promises forced by R.D. Roosevelt from W. Churchill in exchange for America's help in the war in Europe to free her colonies. America had their own selfish agenda, they wanted to free up world trade in order to export and to import raw materials, and colonialism was preventing this with colonial's exclusive "spheres of influence". Singapore's wishes didn't amount to two peanuts in the scheme of things.But also in so doing, America did not realize that she was also letting the genie out of the bottle in the Middle East and now cannot get it back in the bottle. That is why it is now America's responsibility to tidy up that mess she created but causing free trade in the Middle East and to Demand that Britain get out of the Suez or else! This has created the conditions of instability in the Arab world today. The same thing is going to happen in the Far East soon enough.

But even after they left, we maintain a very good relationship with the British, keeping them as our advisers and maintaining a 5 Power Defence Pact with them. We never tear down any British institutions or renamed any roads or buildings to remove our colonial heritage. Not that we are proud of them. But we were not paranoid and neither were we anti British. Have you try to read our main newspaper, the Straits Times? Look at the sports page and you will think you are in London reading the London Times or the Sunday Mail.

You had no choice. Singapore's 3 million people did not matter one bit when considering the requirements of Malaysia and the conditions of all the Tengkus and the Rajahs of Malaysia. You had to play your cards wisely because you needed the Blessings of Britan, and Malaysia to survive as a City state. Later, the Blessings of America.

Our govt, legal and administrative systems were all modelled after the British till today. And we have excellent relations with the Americans. We do not have anti British or anti American movements in this country.

What else could you have done? Opted for Chinese law? or Sharia law? You did not have much choice.

Do not take my disagreement with the Bush Administration as anti American. I did not disagree with the Americans when Clinton was the President. I disagree with the Bush Administration and their policies and objectives. When the American govt is changed, you may hear me singing praises of the new govt if I agree with their policies.

Well your rhetoric could have fooled me rb. It is the impression that you have created. You are defending everything Chinese, and condemning everything western, and criticizing the British and colonialism and their slave policies, and their racist policies, and their unequal treatment of the Asian, and the unfair treatment of the Muslims in the middle east. That is the message I receive from your posts. That is why I keep asking you whether you express the views of most people in Singapore/Malaysia, because it certainly sends out a very unfreindly message. These impressions stick and are not easily forgotten. I know you are only trying to be controversial to stimulate a debate, but it does you no honour. Sorry to be so brutally frank on this occasion.
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redbean



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi elle,

This discussion is getting interesting and quite a mouthful. I will take it in bite sizes, a few at a time.

You sound like a down-trodden coolie moaning about the sufferings of your parents exploited by Gang masters. Did you know that the cockle pickers who were drowned in Britain had Chinese Gang Masters who allowed this exploitation? Did you know that I could go to Walmart and buy a pair of blue jeans for 3/- per pair that was probably made with cheap(slave) labour in China and run by Chinese Bosses in Chinese factories? People the world over will exploit any situation in order to make money. But it seems that to you, when a qwuailo does it it is wrong but if your fellow countryman does it is is OK? What logic is that? It sounds like Hate mongering!

They are only to be treated like beasts of burden. They were discriminated and badly ill treated. That could be the reason why they have to build Chinatowns to live among themselves. They were not allowed to integrate with the White community. Those were the earlier days of unwritten apartheid. It was the fault of the White men. Not the Chinese.

In Chinese tin mines, cheap Chinese labour was used by rich Chinese tin mine owners and paid slave wages to his workers. Similarly in the Rubber estates in Malaya. In China, a few Chin ese miners die digging for coal but their Chinese bosses get away with it for not observing safe practices. Is that exploitation? Every nationality attempts to masximize profits whenever they can. And what was accepted in the 19th Century as the norm may be considered criminal in the 21st Century. Times and conditions and laws change, so please bear in mind such matters when you blithely accuse others of atrocities.
Quoting elle.

Fortunately my parents came to Singapore at a later period when exploitation was less brutal. Or else they will end up like the cockle shell pickers. And I am not a coolie but a coolie's son who has earned the right to have my views heard.

The examples of cockle shell pickles are aplenty in all nationalities in different period of history. Britain is not exempted from this, especially in their exploitations of the Irish, and their colonial subjects. Not going into that.

What I am saying is that these kinds of exploitation is by individuals against individuals. The exploitations of Asians and Africans are done at the national levels and in a scale approved and in connivance with the govt of the day. The Chinese were exploited as cheap labour. And of course they need some Chinese to be the intermediary who shared the crumbs of the exploitation. The masters are still the masters.

But the Chinese should be grateful that they were not exploited like the slaves of Africa, bound in chains to work for nothing except 3 meals.

And no, my posting is not hate mongering, but a reminder that the past is not forgotten though the West would like it to be. And to you, it was the ethos of the time and since all the western countries were doing it, so be it. How could that be? And you said that it was it, and the Asians and Africans should blame themselves for being weak to be exploited. Actually this is the truth, the real thinking in the minds of the West, and in the minds of George Bush and Blair. Take it if you can, with might.

That is why the lessons of the past, and perpetuated today, cannot be forgotten and all Asian and African countries must armed themselves to the teeth, or colonialism will visit them again if they are weak. China and India are able to stand up and speak as equals to the West not because the ethos and the morals of the West have changed. It is because they are strong enough to resist and fight for their rights to be treated as equal on this planet.

The Arabs and most of Africa will still be living under the 19th Century ethos.

I will touch on the other issues later. The Afro Asians must speak up to be heard. The Western media is not going to do the job for them. They have their vested interests and agenda not to do so.
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redbean



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And elle,

I fully agree with you that might is right. And I am not apologising or finding any excuses for the colonisation of the Afro and Asian countries in the earlier period of history. They deserved to be colonised for being weak.

But if today, and they allowed themselves to be weak again and to be colonised, then they doubly deserved to be colonised, just like the pathetic affairs of Arab states. And I do not agree that North Korea should give up its nuclear arms. They do that to their own demise. As a nation, they have all the rights to arm themselves for their own defence. So did the Japanese and the South Koreans.
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*elle*



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Getting Interesting??????????????? Reply with quote

This discussion is getting interesting because I am getting under your skin. No, RB, it is getting interesting because you have been sacrificing your reputation by trying to stir up interest for more people to participate in this forum. You have been trying to reflect their prejudices all along. You have been trying the be the CHAMPION OF THE UNDERDOG, THE OPPRESSED, THE PERSECUTED, THE EXPLOITED, ALL THOSE PEOPLE WITH A CHIP ON THEIR SHOULDER, THE ANTI-WESTERN, ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-ZIONIST, ANTI-ANYTHING NOT ORIENTAL. So much so that you are being identified as one of them, emotionally and intellectually. But Orientals are tongue tied and do not speak out like western educated people like you and me. They only sit in dark corners and peep into our conversations and sit back and giggle at the two men making fools of themselves. It is like an illegal peep-show, exciting!

You have, since I have been here, taken a stance as described in Bold letters. I have from time to time taken up the gauntlet and given you a quite different point of view, much to your annoyance, I am sure. But we are both right, and we do have the right to express our views in this Free and Democratic Society. But you know in your heart that my points of views are equally as valid as yours are. You voice the views of the downtrodden, and I voice the views that often are just the opposite but with logical arguments. It is how you interprete the situation whether it appears biased or not. So we create a spectacle, a scene for amusement, but maybe some people might be able to percieve your or my views differently.

If I make for uncomfortable reading, RB, please bear in mind that it is nothing personal but I have been trained to look at life with "a scientific inquiring mind" I will see things differently from you, sometimes! You will have noted that I do hate inaccuracies or anything that could create for more misunderstandings and reinforce hatred among peoples! That is why I try to correct biased perspectives!
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redbean



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi elle.

We are both trained from the same kind of academic institutions, trained to inquire and to question myths and half truths, and trained to decipher propaganda and misinformation.

The only truth we can talked about and rely on is historical evidence and facts. But the interpretation of these information is still subjective and bias, depending on one's inclination and agenda.

We have opposing views, true. Yours is from a western perspective and mine from an asian perspective. With your training and age, you should be clearer to know that interpretation of events is a subjective matter and not a matter of right or wrong, or as you claimed, scientific.

Let's be real. If the Asian countries, especially China, India, North Korea, Vietnam etc are still as weak as in the colonial days, they will still be treated and humiliated like the poor Arabs. The South Koreans and the Japanese are neo colonies in a way. There is no justice to the Arabs, especially the Palestinians. The only justice in the Middle East is justice of the gun. Western morality and morals have not changed despite their apparent attempts to champion human rights and freedom. It is human rights and freedom for the West while the weak and the rest of the world will have another version of them.

Our discussions are not by two fools. We are talking about things where the academics and the black tie people will not talk about and pretend that they don't exist. This is the value of the discussion. No hypocriscy, saying it as it is.

I don't think people come here to read a novel or an academic piece of literal art.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Thailand and Indonesia, you have forgotten the sufferings of the minority races until they got wise and had to forsake their names for Thai or Indenesian names, and dress like the locals. How many years did that take and at what humiliation? You do not see Chinese signboards in those countries any longer.

Malaysian Chinese have not been prepared to do this adjustment and you know that they are discriminated against.
by elle.

You have forgotten that the Chinese in these countries were poor migrants seeking a better life from their poverty stricken homeland. They came for individual economic reasons. They did not come as conquerors, with weapons and gunboats. They came and lived side by side with the natives.

On the other hand the colonialists came to rule with might. The natives could not do anything to their new rulers and had to be compliant. The relationship between the migrants and locals would definitely cause frictions as the locals have no say in the influx of foreigners to their land. They were colonies and the colonial masters decided what was best for themselves. For this, the Overseas Chinese should be grateful to the colonial powers for facilitating this process.

Would the natives prevent the migrants from settling in their land if they have a choice? Probably they might. And the problems of Overseas Chinese would not be there. These are the legacies of colonialism.

History has the habit of turning a cruel and bad situation into something good eventually. The cruelties of the slave trades of Africa, in my view, have given the African natives a richer life in modern America compare to what they would be like if they remained in Africa today. This is the irony of life. But I do not have the audacity to pass a judgement to claim that this view of mind is right and what I think is good for the Afro Americans is shared by them. They have their own ways of looking at themselves.

If you compare the existence of Overseas Chinese in Western countries and those in Southeast Asia, their developments were different. In Western countries, they were oppressed all the way, discriminated and controlled by the govt, and they had no choice but to find comfort in their little Chinatowns, for mutual support and security and safety from the abuses of the Westerners.

In Southeast Asia, they lived side by side with the people and normally as long as they did not incur the wrath of the colonial masters. Problems with the locals only arose after the colonial masters had left. The artificiality of peaceful coexistence broke down when the master carry the gun was not around.

The Overseas Chinese cannot blame the natives for their anger. But it is unfair for the natives to throw their anger at the Overseas Chinese for their settlement in these land were a product of colonial history. They did not put a gun at the natives to allow them to stay. It was the colonial master's wish that they be allowed to stay.

We cannot unwind several centuries of history and go back to year zero. We have to move on, but it does not mean that we shall conveniently forget the past. We have to take the present situation and make the best out of it for a better and more equitable world, for all...not just for the West. But of course, if I were you, I would want the world to be status quo, in your favour.
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redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Western high and mighty justice and ethics

The Professor Simon Shorvon case is another glaring example of what Western justice and high ethics are all about. They decide their own rights and justice. Small and weak countries have no rights to their justice and ethics.

Simon Shorvon's unethical and unprofessional practices in Singapore, ie, 'recruiting patients and altering their medications without their informed consent or the knowledge of their neurologists' were serious ethical and professional breaches. Singapore Medical Council(SMC) sacked him only to find him appointed in the prestigious University of London College and National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, London.

Such serious violations of professional and ethical conducts in an important field of medical sciences cannot be allowed in any civilised world. It can only be practised in third world countries on third world patients by first world eminent professors. The third world people, govt and patients have no right to a little decency. That is what the case is all about.

And the SMC has a duty and responsibility to see such disgraceful acts be made known to prevent further repeats of the violations.

However, the British General Medical Council(GMC) had turned down SMC's request for a public inquiry on technical grounds. And they conveniently ruled that SMC was only an informant and not complainant and thus 'the GMC owed no duty of subservience ot the SMC' to inform the SMC of its decision.

The issue here, to the British, is a case of subservience to a small country. For its pride as a big country, it refused to hear a complaint from a small country to be seen as subservient. It brushed aside the more important issues of professional breaches of conduct and ethics.

This is the kind of Western justice that the rest of the world had lived with for centuries. But for a declining power, a small power like Britain today, they can no longer rule away their hypocrisy.

And should Singapore and the rest of the world send their students to the University of London when such misconduct lives among their eminent academic community? And this also applies to the University of Birmingham.

The world must know of such flagrant disregard of profession ethics and violations of the rights of patients and how the British authorities tried to cover up the case on grounds that it was not subservient to a smaller country, its former colony.
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redbean



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes they came as conquerors and colonialists. All the European nations were doing the same thing throughout the whole world. It was custormary then. No one spoke against it during that period. If you were weak you were subjugated. Period! That was the criteria. Sorry if your ancestors were weak and were run over, that's life. You can't change history or undo it. It is history!

You are seeing it from a very angry and jaundiced eye RB, if I may say so. It is views like this that perpetuates hate and anger. The Muslims are doing exactly the same thing today! by elle.


Such are the views of White men. The weak nations need to be trampled on. period. It is not only customary then, it still is today. The whole of Middle East is a living example. The way the US is trying to trample over the North and South Korea, and to a great extent China, are living examples. That is why I advocate all countries to be strong, to be nuclear for their own pride and good. Or they will be trampled by the West.

Your view is an exact representative of Western jaundiced view of the world. The West is creating tension all over the world and blaming the world for it. Leave the Arabs alone in the Middle East and let them solve their own problems without your meddling. It is their problems, not yours. Oh their oil is important to you. Why can't you buy them in the international oil market like what other countries are doing? Why must the West meddle with their govt and their lives?

And why is the US so frighten about a nuclear North Korea when its neighbours are not raising any concern about it? The US is several thousand miles across the Pacific Ocean. Why would North Korea be a threat to the US and not to its neighbours? What has the US done to become potential target of North Korea?

The South Koreans are not paranoic over the North's military capability. Japan is the odd one out and they deserved to be frighten for all the wrongs they had done to the two Koreas. And if they continue to mend fences and their past crimes against Korea, there is no reason to fear Korea. But if they keep going about the way they are doing, threatening the Koreans and trying to bully them, then the karmic retribution will come.
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