Forum Index
this forum welcomes all forumers who appreciate decent and well thought out views and discussions. all forumers are encouraged to accept that different forumers have different views and often there is no absolutely right or wrong views.
Menu
 Forum IndexHome
FAQFAQ
MemberlistMemberlist
UsergroupsUsergroups
RegisterRegister
ProfileProfile
Log in to check your private messagesMessages
Log inLogin/Out

Quick Search

Advanced Search

Links
mysingaporenews
Singapore River Tour
Singapore Education
Singapore Orchids
littlespeck
ypapforum
Singapore Hosting
Sample Link 2
Sample Link 2

Who's Online
[ Administrator ]
[ Moderator ]


Google Search
Google

http://www.phpbb.com
Join me to give TOM(The Old Media) a run for their money
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 29, 30, 31
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Singapore Current Affairs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say the good stuff, the daft only want to hear the good stuff
Below are some extracts from an article posted in the independent Singapore on the current furore over the depreciating value of HDB flats. Netizens are angry with the CEO of HDB for telling them that the value of their flats would fall as the lease got shorter. Theycould not accept such bad news.

“then-National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan told Singaporeans: “We’re proud of the asset enhancement policy. (It) has given almost all Singaporeans a home of their own…that grows in value over time.”….
current National Development Minister Lawrence Wong…majority of flats will be returned to HDB, without any compensation for homeowners, when the 99-year-lease runs out….
Dr Cheong, “You should buy a flat, as you say it commensurate with the lease. The price you pay should commensurate with the lease. As you should buy a flat that would last you a lifetime.”
Netizens criticised Dr Cheong for her “out of touch” views on how Singaporeans can monetise their flat. Not realising that the options she offered aren’t ideal goals for ordinary Singaporeans who likely hope to enjoy the fruits of their labour in their senior years….”
What Dr Cheong should say, and what the daft would want to hear, is that the value of their HDB flats would keep going up and up, even when the lease expires. This is music to their ears. Saying that the value will fall and turn to zero are bad news, unacceptable, unpalatable and anyone saying it should be slammed. Dr Cheong should be wise to say things like what Mah Bow Tan said, that the value of HDB flats would grow over time. Then she would be like by the daft, never time if what she said would be half truth or truth with many qualifications.
Let me say something the daft would like to hear. I will parrot the ministers in past saying asset enhancement will enhance the value of their HDB flats and the value will grow over time. Be happy with this news, just like be happy looking at your CPF statements seeing the value going up every time. Feel rich, feel good, just put the head inside the ground like an ostrich.
Don’t anyone dare tell the daft that the value of their HDB flats would become zero. This is unspeakable even if it is the truth, the final truth. Daft only want to hear good news, the good stuff, even if they are untruth or half truth.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most deadly fake news...from the state



The deliberation of the Select Committee on Fake News started on the premise that fake news originated from non govt sources, from bloggers or social media. Would they be looking at fake news from the state, from national institutions? Fake news from official sources are more deadly than fake news from social media as the impact of social media could quickly be quashed.

The world had witnessed the most deadly fake news resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and millions being wounded or hurt in one way or another coming from the states. Remember the fake news on WMD in Iraq? Oh, my apologies, that was not fake news but vicious disinformation from the state to justify and invasion of Iraq. It was not fake news. Deadly and vicious news from the state are not fake news? Just a casual mistake and no action needed to be taken? The states are allowed to disseminate fake news and simply claimed that it was a mistake, an error? Fake news that were put out by the states are many times more deadly than fake news from individual or some mischievious organisations.

The WMD fake news was deadly but not as deadly as the fake news of a missile attack on Hawaii.That fake news nearly triggered WW3 and brought an end to civilisation or at least a nuclear holocaust. No one is talking about it anymore, not the state that put out the fake and dangerous news. So no issue. The state is the most guilty party in circulating fake news to serve its dirty agenda and could get away with it, with impunity, with immunity.

It is a case of the biggest devil pointing the fingers at the little children, demonising the children for their mischievous pranks.What would the state do when it is found guilty of creating fake news? Stupid question. The answer is nothing. The state, the holy ones, would not put out fake news. Any fake news put out by the states is at worse a mistake, an error. The state would not be prosecuted as there is no authority to prosecute the state. Could not imagine how the state would ownself check ownself and prosecute ownself.

Fake news is the way to go for the state. The state would decide what is fake news and who to prosecute. The state is God and would do no wrong. There is no need to consider any law against the state as the source of fake news. I am God, oops, the people representing the state are Gods.

PS. The Russians poisoning Skripal Sergei and daughter, and Assad using chemical agent against his people were clear cut, obvious fake news that were not verified by independent sources but simply based on the words of the accusers, the animals that alleged others were animals.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asians assisting the West to recolonise Asia



This topic could also be titled, Asian news to be reported by Asians. More than half a century has gone past and Asia is still unable to shake off the colonial yoke. Many Asian countries are still colonised by the West, some unknowingly, some happily. This phase of post colonial Asia is the colonisation of the minds, the thinking, the mindset, by the use of main media. The main media is the biggest culprit, the biggest instrument in the colonisation of the Asian minds to be continually subservient to the angmohs. Angmohs are great, smart, clever, sophisticated, kind, handsome, civilised and knows all, have great ideas and enjoy life, make living better. The Asians are daft, unthinking, cannot thinking, inferior, crude and base, completely devoid of ideas, did not know how to live life, basically backward and stupid, despite all the best education they could get in the best western universities.

This is not just a white lie, it is a lie that daft Asians conditioned themselves to believe in and to live in, with the help of the main media, with stories written and reported by the angmohs about them. Many Asian main media cannot live without the angmohs and some half baked Asians thinking like angmohs to tell them what is right, what is wrong, what is good, what is bad, what to think and what not to think, what to say and what not to say.

All Asian media have failed in this task, miserably, except for those countries that have some pride in themselves, in believing that they are not inferior to the angmohs.

It is high time that Asians start a news agency that reports news the Asian ways, news that are written and read by Asians, particularly of their respective countries. It is an insult to the respective people of their countries to have their own news, domestic news, written and told by the angmohs or fake angmohs. When would the Asians start to respect themselves to have their own people tell their own stories and not to be seen and told from the perspective and tainted views of angmohs whose interests are contrary to their well being?

There are many able Asians, politically conscious of what is going on around Asia, to take up this call, to set up an Asian media, with Asians managing and writing and telling Asian news. People like Jack Ma, Li Ka Shing, Robert Kuok or Ho Kwon Ping, just to mention a few, should step forward, individually or as a team, to form such a news agency, to educate and enlighten the daft Asians that they are not that daft, to have pride in being Asians and to think Asians. They could cooperate with the respective govts of Asian countries to have their respective news makers and producers, to tell the world about themselves, in their own words, and free their people from being colonised by the angmohs for the last time.

Asia is for Asians. Asians must take charge of their own lives and do, think, talk about what is good for themselves, not what the angmohs are saying and thinking for them. Asia must grow up, be adults, not forever be like children or adolescents, forever needing to be told and led by the angmohs. Asians must free themselves from being colonised by the angmohs and chart their own destinies, to be themselves and be proud of themselves, for their own good.

The last thing the literate Asians should do is to assist the angmohs to continue to colonise the minds of fellow Asians. You don't need the angmohs to tell you to hire them to teach in your universities to deserve higher rankings. You don't need the angmohs to tell you that you are well and good, to tell you who is the devil and who are the good guys. You have a mind to think for yourself.

You are Asians, not angmoh slaves and servants.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can 1MDB drag Singapore down as well
The infamous 1MDB scandal played a big role in bringing down Najib and his corrupt regime. As many of the transactions of 1MDB went through Singapore, with several banks involved, could Singapore be implicated and this cancer spread to take its toll on the Singapore govt as well?
There is a post in thestatestimesreview titled ‘Did Najib accept Singapore’s High Speed Rail project to hide 1MDB funds?’ that speculated Singapore’s involvement in this scandal. It is highly speculative and controversial of course. It is just a point of view put forth by thestatestimereview, and the author admitted that it is just a possibility, not a fact. Shanmugam would call this serious allegation.
Here are a few paragraphs of the article,
‘Following Lee Hsien Loong’s embarrassing 30-mins meeting with newly-elected Malaysian PM Mahathir Mohamad, the High Speed Rail project along with other bilateral deals with Singapore are now back on the negotiation stage. Sending a message to Lee Hsien Loong, the Malaysia’s Economic Affairs Minister announced an hour after Lee Hsien Loong was sent out the doors of the PM’s Putrajaya building, that all bilateral deals signed by former Malaysia PM Najib Razak has to be re-looked at.
For good reason.
In exchange for hiding his stolen 1MDB funds in Singapore, former Malaysian PM Najib Razak clinched a deal with Lee Hsien Loong to extend Malaysia’s High Speed Rail (HSR) project to Singapore? Entirely plausible.
For a start, Malaysia does not need to extend it’s domestic HSR to Singapore in the first place. There is little economic benefits for Malaysia to link Kuala Lumpur and Johor to Singapore, which has only proven to worsen the rising cost of living of Malaysians. So why is the HSR extended to Singapore then?
Based off United States’s investigation, Singapore played the major role helping Najib Razak hide his stolen billions. The funds transacted through 5 Singapore banks, including Temasek Holdings-owned DBS and Standard Chartered….’

The suggestions in the article are good for reading and would make a good fictional story on political conspiracy and torrid business deals. Whether there is any element of truth in this episode only time will tell. If it turns out to be true, things would look very embarrassing as Mahathir would have no reason to hide anything if he comes to know about it. He would proudly tell the whole world the whole truth and nothing but the truth, this time with all honesty, as he has all the reasons to do so.
And if it does happen, the fall out may be tough to ignore. One govt has fallen because of 1MDB. Would it bring down another? Until proven, this is only an allegation and there is nothing more to it. It is not fake news as fake news would claim that it is true and want the readers to believe that it is true. The article said it is ‘entirely plausible’. So just leave it as that and wait for the story to unfold. No need to jump into conclusion.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The North Korea that the western media would not tell you





This is a picture posted by Vivian Balakrishnan in his facebook. It is no different from the buildings in a developed and well organised country. It is definitely not a third world developing country with slums and poverty everywhere. It is not the often repeated abject poverty country that the western media want the world to believe, deceiving the world to believe. This is a picture of North Korea that you would not see or reported by the western media. The western media would showed you some corners of the countryside or some ancient photos of an impoverished North Korea after the days of carpet bombing and destruction by the evil American Empire. The Americans and the western media have been lying to the world and to all their readers of a North Korea suffering from abject poverty and famine and hungry people dying on the streets.

Vivian would not lie and this is a recent photo taken a few days ago during his visit to North Korea. The buildings cannot be built overnight nor are they a mirage or fabricated from Lego bricks. Listen to what Vivian has to say as reported in Channel News Asia.

"

In Pyongyang, he witnessed a clean and beautiful city with ongoing construction for modern commercial and residential buildings. He also saw an eye hospital with the latest medical equipment, he told reporters.
“To be frank with you, I come back very impressed,” Dr Balakrishnan said to Singapore media on Saturday in Beijing, where he made a brief stopover after flying from Pyongyang in the morning.

“Frankly, my views have also altered based on what I saw, heard, and (after I had) spoken to people,” he said, sharing his reflections on North Korea. “Clearly, the government has been hard at work all these decades to upgrade their infrastructure."

Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/i-come-back-very-impressed-vivian-balakrishnan-on-trip-to-north-10413538




It is understandable that his views are changing as he was also being fed with the image of a North Korea provided by the western media that have not set foot on North Korea and with a sinister plot to paint North Korea in the worse possible. Until today you will hear many silly western supposedly scholars still chirping North Korea is suffering from extreme poverty, famine and hardship and hungry people.





“Despite these maximal sanctions, what you have is a society that has continued to invest itself and continuously trying to upgrade people and their skills and the services they provide to their citizens,” Dr Balakrishnan said. “Now, can you imagine if peace finally comes, and North Korea is allowed to open up to the world and gain access to technology, capability, skills and markets."

“I think the sky is the limit for their people," he added.




I hope the unthinking and those that swear by the western media that North Koreans are dying on the streets would open their eyes, remove the blinkers and see the new reality. If you look at the above picture, it would put many Asian and Southeast Asian countries to shame.


Unfortunately the silly bananas would not believe anything contrary to their programmed mind and would continue to insist that Vivian is lying or being shown a false picture of North Korea. What to do, there are people that simply would want to live in the world of make belief created by the western media.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

National plan to fight fake news
The Select Committee has come out with a national strategy ‘to combat fake news campaigns run by foreign operators to safeguard its sovereignty and security. The focus of the Committee is foreign operators and social media. The problem is that local operators and main stream media are not saints and angels either and did not conduct campaigns to undermine the country’s and national interest. This point is not addressed by this Committee or only superficially.
The Committee claimed that they have ‘evidence suggesting that “a range of state and non state actors” are engaging in disinformation operations here, and that these operators have used online news articles and social media to influence Singaporeans and legitimize another state’s international actions.’ It also mentioned that “a particular foreign state” without identifying it, had launched closed to 40,000 attacks. The identity of this state is quite obvious depending on what lenses one is wearing. Some choose to call it A state, some choose to call it B state, according to their vested interests and alignment with the respective state.
If one is to read the so called serious articles posted in the main media, one can easily identify the amount of falsehood and fake news used to undermine certain states with disinformation, and I quote thenewpaper report, ‘”Cyber armies” are also deployed to aid sectarian or political agendas in several neighbouring countries, and these can easily be repurposed and deployed against Singapore.’
How such blatant distorted fake news and political disinformation could be allowed into the main media needs no explanation. There is no need for more training for journalists or editors to make them less so stupid to miss the biased contents, agenda in fake news. Other than those that have not read history or political science, or are absolute idiots, anyone with a little common sense would be able to check the facts and distill the truth from fake news.
Often the fake news in the main media is done in collusion with foreign states to disparage and attack other states. Main media is as guilty or more guilty than social media in the spread of fake news and disinformation for political agendas.
So, where are we heading in this witch hunt? How real is the effort to fight fake news?
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This picture is posted in Yahoo News. Pic is available at mysingaporenews.blogspot.sg. It showed Charles Chong, the chairman of the fake news Committee with Shanmugam on his right, Janil Puthucherri on his left and further left was Pritam Singh.


As they said, a picture is worth a thousand words, or a picture does not lie. Take this picture as a mental exercise on the perceptions it creates on the readers and also the intent of the people putting up this picture. One can draw many conclusions from looking at it. Let me just throw up a few interpretations of this picture of members of the Select Committee on fake news.


A casual observer looking at this picture could form many impressions. One, the Indian community in Singapore is the majority ethnic group, or the Indians are the most powerful political community in Singapore. Chinese is a minority in Singapore. The readers could also be wondering why 3 Indians, highly qualified, a top lawyer and minister, another lawyer and a doctor, are just member of a committee headed by an aircraft technician/engineer. Should not the top notch lawyer/minister, the most qualified and most clever, the most powerful, be the chairman instead?


Of course a reader who is not informed of the big number of committee members may get away thinking that the Committee is small and likely be made up of the 4 members in the picture. The whole truth is that there were at least 13 members in the Committee.


A picture lies or can lie depending on the intent of the people putting up the picture and it can show half truth, select truth or to mislead the readers by what is being shown or what is being cropped out from the full picture. Remember all the pictures and articles about North Korea as recent as before the Kim Trump Summit, all telling a story of abject poverty, North Koreans dying of famine and under nourishment. Compare those sinister pictures and articles with what you see on Channel News Asia, the sparkling high rise buildings that put a shame to many Asian countries, and the well planned road network, parks, commercial and residential buildings.


The truth of a picture is as good as the saying, statistics lie and lie and lie if this is what the person behind them chose to do so.


And readers may even have different inferences from the expressions of the people in the picture to infer what is in their heads or from their eyes what are their agenda or intent.


The picture reminds me of a pic someone sent me recently. It was about a turtle sitting on top of a tall pole. It could not climb up the pole on its own. Someone had to put it there. The turtle also did not know why someone would put it on top of a pole and why it was there, to do what? It had no clue of what was happening around it.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IPSOS- Most think can but cannot spot fake news
How credible are surveys conducted by marketing research agencies? If I were to conduct a survey on whether Singaporeans or any nationals if they could spot fake news by showing them 10 headlines, just headlines, and ask them whether they are real or fake, how many would be able to get the answers correct?
The answer is obvious. Just by reading a headline, it is highly impossible, highly improbable to know whether the content is real or fake. Even the committee members of the Select Committee on fake news would also fail miserably if they were to be put to such a test.
IPSOS is reported in thenewpaper as a global independent market research agency and they conducted a survey with the ‘aims to understand the susceptibility of Singaporeans towards fake news.’ And this is their conclusion, ‘Four in five Singaporeans say they can confidently spot fake news. But when put to the test, more than 90 per cent mistakenly identified at least one out of five fake headlines as real.’
This was how the test was conducted. ‘But when participants were given 10 news headlines from digital channels and asked to indicate which ones were fake, only 43 per cent correctly identified two or fewer fake headlines. Of the 10, half were fakes.’
Even if I were to tell just by reading headlines, I can confidently tell you that I would not have better clue or get better results than those being surveyed. And I can also confidently tell you the result would be the same if all the committee members of the Select Committee on fake news were put to the same test.
What do you think is the problem with this test? How credible and reliable is a test of this nature to understand the susceptibility of people towards fake news?
This is another case of stupidity has no cure. Who do you think are the stupid one?
Incidentally, who is smarter or cleverer to tell the public what is fake news or what is the truth and what to believe and what not to believe? The clever people in the Select Committee or some small groups of people thinking that they are smarter and cleverer than you? Are you nuts or idiots that need some unknown jokers to tell you what is true and what is fake? What is your IQ and what are their IQs?
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The end days for social media
First they came for therealsingapore, then thestatestimes. Then they went for the TOC, and the latest is theindependent. Every social media provider would now be wondering who is next. There are only a handful social media websites that are producing local political news other than the political parties. With the major sites now under investigation and possible prosecution, only one or two of such sites are left.
When all the websites are taken to task, it is so easy to find faults when one wanted to do so, Singapore’s social media scene would be bleak and blank. An eerie silence. What’s next?
Would the personal blogs also be targeted? How long more could mysingaporenews continue to exist before calling it a day?
Some commentators are saying that this is just a pre GE phenomenon, to clear the field before the GE. This means that things would get back to normal after the GE. Is that so? Is it so easy to set up a website/blog and attract followers and readers to the new site/blog? Many may be so discouraged to call it quit completely.
Would this be good to Singapore and Singaporeans? Would Singaporeans be turned into frogs living in a well, with a sky that is as big as the well opening and knowing nothing and seeing nothing else beyond that well opening?
Would the day come when there is no socio political discussion in the social media in Singapore except for those operating from far away, outside the jurisdiction of Singapore’s long arm of the law? Oh, in today’s news, Malaysian sites are also blocked.
Maybe I shall write about hawker food, health, littering, accidents, dogs and cats that Singaporean reporters are good at and leave the political news to foreigners that are so clever in this matter.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 13855
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are there so many anti China articles in the main media?
No one can walk away not noticing the amount of anti China articles or negative articles by American and pro western writers on China, depicting China as the bad guy and the Americans as the angel in the local media. On 30 Nov alone, one full page in Top of the News with three articles, two by ST’s US correspondent Nirmal Ghosh were published. One of the articles even appeared on the front page of ST. All these articles, all looking at China from the squint eyes of American/western interests come first and are good are as good as fake news or half truths, or even mischievous disinformation.
Why would reading the main media be like reading American or western media promoting western interests, presenting one sided and biased views that are mainly negative and hostile to China and China’s interests? It is understandable for western media to do so as they have been ruling the world for the last few centuries and what is right to them but bad for others are blinded to them. The constant narrative that colonialism and imperialism, western dominance and violence against the rest of the world is their normal and unquestionable truth. Is it objective reporting of news or is there a hidden agenda, a hidden hand to deride China and the rest of the world as the norm?
How would such articles be viewed by the Chinese who are obviously monitoring them and studying them closely to take stock of the thinking of the Singapore leaders? Is this good for Singapore China relations?
The govt has been telling everyone that Sino Singapore relations are very good, and Singapore is neutral vis a vis the Sino American rivalry for world supremacy and influence. Singapore has also repeatedly been sending high level delegations to China to want to establish more and better commercial and political exchanges and cooperations and these can only be fruitful if the Chinese did not have doubts in Singapore’s sincerity and neutrality towards China. If the Chinese perceive that the negative verbiage in the main media is intentional or officially sanctioned, then all the efforts and money spent sending delegations to China would be a waste of time and futile.
The Chinese are not stupid and our boys and girls must not take them for granted. If Singapore wants better relations with China, wants to participate in the BRI and jump on the Chinese economic bandwagon, the last thing it should do is to curb the spread of negative articles that put China in a bad light in the main media. The daily hammering of China is NG, no good for Sino Singapore relations. It stinks and smelt insincerity and duplicity. How could Sino Singapore relations move forward, to a higher level when this is going on in broad daylight almost daily? Would the Chinese fail to notice the kind of signals in the main media and happily work with Singapore in joint projects in the BRI or in other parts of China?
The big question is why is this allowed to go on unabated? Is it in Singapore’s interest? Or is Singapore being armed twisted by the Americans to go on painting China as the bad guy in the local media? These negative articles of China without questioning the wrongs and evilness of the Americans and the West are targeting which audience? What is the intent and purpose of looking at China from the American and western perspective and interests? The American dominance is waning and no longer the American law of the jungle rules. A new balance of international order and power is in the making and it is to Singapore’s interest to understand this reality and act and behave like it said, neutral to the powers in rivalry for world dominance.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Singapore Current Affairs All times are GMT + 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 29, 30, 31
Page 31 of 31

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group. Hosted by Vodien Internet Solutions