Forum Index
this forum welcomes all forumers who appreciate decent and well thought out views and discussions. all forumers are encouraged to accept that different forumers have different views and often there is no absolutely right or wrong views.
Menu
 Forum IndexHome
FAQFAQ
MemberlistMemberlist
UsergroupsUsergroups
RegisterRegister
ProfileProfile
Log in to check your private messagesMessages
Log inLogin/Out

Quick Search

Advanced Search

Links
mysingaporenews
Singapore River Tour
Singapore Education
Singapore Orchids
littlespeck
ypapforum
Singapore Hosting
Sample Link 2
Sample Link 2

Who's Online
[ Administrator ]
[ Moderator ]


Google Search
Google

http://www.phpbb.com
LKY dialogue with young Singaporeans
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Singapore Current Affairs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 11472
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GE: The Youth Factor

The engaging forum between LKY and the 10 young people from the media reflects the importance of the new generation in the politics of Singapore. There were 10 young people, opinionated, aware and informed of the political issues in the country, unlike the school kids that were featured before. Now, this group of people know what they were talking about.

And for LKY to take them on in an open forum shows how serious he and the PAP is about the votes of the young. They are going make an impact in this general election, like it or not. And LKY was there to convince these young people and to convert and win them over to the PAP camp.

Did he succeed in what he sets out to do?

In the first place the 10 people were all of the same mind. That's what I perceived from their questions, body language and expression. They all have similar thoughts of what was wrong with the present systems and where the fault lies. Their questions were direct and unrestrained. Unlevel playing field, no mandate, restriction of expression, unfair upgrading, relevance of GRCs, a bullying gov, arrogance etc.

LKY's response was to play hardball. Nobody plays fair in politics. These are the realities. The ruling party will not help the opposition. And when one of them made a general statement, he was mowed down by a clinical and precise argument on facts. It was a clever argument that will destroy and win a judgement in court. The young man could not substantiate his statement with empirical facts about the fear factor. He misquoted.

But does winning that argument on technical ground win the ground? It will win a legal case or an argument. period. The listeners were not convinced, from their expression and rumbling. In fact that kind of statements, that people vote out of fear, can never be substantiated even if a proper survey is done. Not many will tell the truth, especially when they perceived the stakes were high. What ended up is the winning of an argument but losing the audience. This is politics.

The explanations by LKY on the necessity for GRC did not address the question that GRC can be smaller. Neither was it convincing to say that GRCs were set up to test the ability of the opposition to run the country.

The argument that because the opposition was weak or the walkovers, so the people are contented and there was a mandate for the PAP to rule did not cut any ice. It came across as winning by default, and supported the young people's point that it was due to the uneven playing field, apathy and restrictions placed on the opposition.

As for the lack of good opposition, LKY said that all the good candidates were with the PAP. It is true that the opposition could not attract good quality candidates. But there are many excellent candidates that are not contesting for many reasons. What was not answer is why are good people not joining the opposition? But the answer was there.

Did LKY manage to wind over the young people to his side?

There were some reverence shown. But as to winning them over with hardball politics, the answer was obvious.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 11472
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point which I missed out. One question raised concerns the possibility that in the future, if this one party system is entrenched, and PAP becomes a rogue govt, then Singapore will be in deep shit. And it will be very difficult to get out of the shit when the rogue govt has everything under its control.

LKY did not attempt to answer this point. And I think everyone knows that such an eventuality can happen. And if we blindly go ahead to entrench a one party govt, we are digging our own grave.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abao



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Pasir Ris-Punggol GRC/ Punggol South

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It definately helps win arguments but at the expense of the people's support. Playing Hardball imo, will lead to people splitting into 3 factions.

1. People who become strongly opposed to the hardball and join the opposition.
2. People who are afraid of the ruling party and decided not to be involved in politics.
3. People who loves playing hardball and the power of the ruling party and joins the ruling party. (which we cannot tell now, but from recent news reports, the tone of the ruling party to the opposition cannot be said as polite altogether)

People of group 1 may become very cynical, 2 may become pro-emigration, and 3 may become more autocratic.
_________________
SmileSad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 11472
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this the case now?

And the hardball players think that this is the only reality and the only way to go.

Then as you said, one group got alienated and gave up, one group became quitters, and a small group joined the hardball players and start to kick balls.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
timebomb



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"A man convinced against his will is a man unconvinced still.'

Lee is a wily politician. He does not give direct answers to difficult questions.
But if the small group of young people in the forum is representative of the young in Singapore, it's obvious then that the days of the ruling party are numbered.

Lee said in politics, there's no fairness. In other words, politics is dirty. If I had been one of the young guys in the forum there, I would have said, "But Sir, we expect you to be above that. After all, you and your party have always been seen to be open, honest and fair in your dealings with the people. Why should you treat your political opponents any differently?"

Redbean, I think you should have open a new thread to discuss the forum between LKY and the group of young people. It's not a good idea to keep using the same old thread because it has become too long. New users to the forum will find it tiresome to read through all the posts and will therefore be discouraged from participating.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 11472
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are some of the comments in Yvonne Lim's commentary of the dialogue. It reflects a sector of the population who are admirers of LKY and the values of respect for the elders.

William Teo Jui Wah

'It is perfectly all right to have different views, But the way the questions were asked and what we saw in their body language, suggested that they are no better than kids and should be sent back to school.'

Sunny J

'You should be humbled by the fact that a great iconic leader such as Mr Lee is giving you a lesson in politics and life...Learn open heartedly from the elders who built this nation with blood, sweat and tears.'

Kwan Foo Sim

'The panelists obviously wanted to be heard, but not to listen and learn from MM Lee. I was ashamed that many didn't even exhibit basic courtesy when asking their questions.'

Then there are the more considered views of some.

Mohd Rosle Ahmad hailed the young Singaporeans 'gloves-off' approach for dispelling the myth of the 'fear factor' in Singapoe politics.

Jessica Nobes

'The dialogue was an appropriate avenue to let doubts to be cleared, for better mutual understanding. I was glad that some of the views I shared were voiced and some of my questions answered.'

Ephraim Loy appauded the Government for engaing the youth.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dhyt



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder why asking tough questions is a mark of disrespect.

I have tremendous respect for LKY and for his leadership. He was a man who was unafraid to seize the day and do what he thought was right for the country.

And I also have absolute respect for his point of view on the issues raised. However, that does not necessarily mean that I subscribe to them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matilah_Singapura



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 728
Location: LAND OF SMILES & INSTANT GRATIFICATION, of Delightful Exploitation...and a true Buddhist spirit!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Party Lah Singapura! Reply with quote

redbean wrote:
One question raised concerns the possibility that in the future, if this one party system is entrenched, and PAP becomes a rogue govt, then Singapore will be in deep shit. And it will be very difficult to get out of the shit when the rogue govt has everything under its control.

LKY did not attempt to answer this point. And I think everyone knows that such an eventuality can happen. And if we blindly go ahead to entrench a one party govt, we are digging our own grave.


I'm famous! Cool

That's the Matilah Singapura story! Except that I have a time frame: 10 - 30 years.

And I agree... there is no stopping the gradual slide into the sewer of iniquity, when Singapore ends up as a smouldering turd, floating around aimlessly in the South China Sea.

Since there is no stopping it, you may as well have a good time. It is good to live in the present and be unconcerned about future events over which you have no control. Shocked

All evil begins with fear. When you allow fear, you surrender hope...

Life is for living. If you succumb to tyranny and oppression, you must first surrender to it in your own mind, and then allow fear to permeate you soul, and corrupt your humanity. Then go out and spread the fear virus to anyone and everyone you come into contact with, because whether you choose to believe it or not, your mood and your emotions may very well affect others.

My antidote for this is not to "try and save the world", but to have a good time regardless. Make a joke out of the situation. Laugh and cock a snook at your oppressors - never give them the satisfaction of comandeering your mind or sullying your spirit or robbing you of your smile.

Selfishness is a darn good shield, and it is part of human nature. To be totally selfish is never to allow big bullies to affect you.

So party, have a good time. Look after the people you care about, and they'll look after you. When you have a party, no one is really in charge. When you experience joy and laughter, there is no one ruling over you. When you have a rocking good time with kindred spirits, it is anarchy at its finest.

Party Lah Singapura!

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
timebomb



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, right.

A friend who's very observant asked me if I noticed that only MM's chair has armrests. The picture in the Straits Times today confirmed what she observed to be true. I wonder if this was deliberately arranged or was it just that they ran out of chairs with armrests. I'm inclined to believe it's the former though. I wouldn't put it past them to indulge in a bit of "psychological warfare". After all, they made it quite clear that in politics, it's never fair.

LKY was once known as the "Great Persuader", the man who could persuade disbelievers over to his side by clever arguments and logical reasoning. But I think the old man is losing his touch. The last thing a great persuader would do is to put anyone down. If you noticed, after the put down, Ken Kwek asked no more questions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matilah_Singapura



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 728
Location: LAND OF SMILES & INSTANT GRATIFICATION, of Delightful Exploitation...and a true Buddhist spirit!

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google video link to dialogue with MM Lee Kuan Yew - "Why My Vote Matters", Channel News Asia:
click here


timebomb wrote:
But I think the old man is losing his touch. The last thing a great persuader would do is to put anyone down. If you noticed, after the put down, Ken Kwek asked no more questions.


I was disappointed with Ken Kwek for caving in to intimidation. Everyone (especially a full-grown adult human) has the power to decide, and chooses HOW to be treated by others.

At the very least, Ken could have brushed it off with a come-back and humour and humanity with a response like:

"Mr Lee, you areómost of the timeóan intelligent person. I'm not your grandson, so I'm going to ignore that stupid statement from you. As I was saying...".

And smile the whole way through, in the most charming way possible. It is important not to call the MM "stupid", but his statement - hammer it...HARD. It sends the message: even smart people are capable of saying dumb things, and will do so occasionally. We are all human. (the smile connotes "humanity")

After Mr Kwek was "put down" like "lky's grandson", he lost the plot. Had LKY had to face young people in any western country, he would have been challenged vigourously.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
timebomb



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matilah_Singapura wrote:
"Mr Lee, you areómost of the timeóan intelligent person. I'm not your grandson, so I'm going to ignore that stupid statement from you. As I was saying...".

Clever response, Matilah but even if you had been there and gave that reply, we probably wouldn't get to hear it. The forum wasn't live, you know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matilah_Singapura



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 728
Location: LAND OF SMILES & INSTANT GRATIFICATION, of Delightful Exploitation...and a true Buddhist spirit!

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was merely pointing out a possible way of responding to intimidation.

I handle "difficult" people everyday. Wink
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 11472
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watch the programme and can feel how bad Ken felt. The rest of the panellists were intimidated as well.

More important is that it won a battle but lost a war.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
redbean



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 11472
Location: singapore

PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are still a lot of comments on this dialogue, criticisms of the youth and how useful this is for the future. However, most of the criticism were more about form than substance, about respect for LKY than about the issues raised.

For the traditional and conservatives, they would have to accept that the world is changing and respect for the elders not only cannot be taken for granted, the forms will also have to change. In the corporate world, many western MNCs adopted the first name basis even when addressing the CEOs. This is quite a cultural shock to some Asians brought up to address any senior as uncles and aunties, and soldiers who have to address everyone senior as sirs and students to teachers as sir and madam. Many cannot stomach a 20 year old assistant calling his 60 year old CEO John or Mike. It just don't sound right to them, but it is a way of life in many MNCs.

The way people are addressed, or the way people talk to one another, may not be an indicator of disrespectful or rudeness. Respecting someone does not mean that one must speak meekly and keep calling sir in the beginning and at the end.

In a public forum people are expected to speak and argue over issues. It is not a lecture or a family dressing down session or a grandfather passing words of wisdom to the young. What the shit. Why am I wasting time on forms than substance.
_________________
what i posted is just my personal view. feel free to disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matilah_Singapura



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 728
Location: LAND OF SMILES & INSTANT GRATIFICATION, of Delightful Exploitation...and a true Buddhist spirit!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redbean wrote:
Respecting someone does not mean that one must speak meekly and keep calling sir in the beginning and at the end.


Exactly.

We may agree that basic humanity means respecting everyone as individuals.

However I see no obligation to respect the beliefs, behaviour or speech of anyone.

...or to put it in laissez-faire classical liberal language:

"I respect your right to private property. But that doesn't mean I have to respect your choices in how you use your private property, nor support the purposes you choose to use it for".
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Singapore Current Affairs All times are GMT + 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group. Hosted by Vodien Internet Solutions